In this new episode of the Revelland podcast, Martijn Holtslag from KNARS talks to Steph about moshpit mayhem, the sensation of vitamin C pills and dreaming big. They talk about the potential of creators, by creating more than just music, and the power of storytelling. Curious? Jump right into episode 4 of the Revelland podcast.
As one of the three artists who joined Revelland to take their live gigs to a whole other level, Martijn shares insights regarding his creative process and what elements were important when creating his new live show. By drawing inspiration from sensory limitations and including deaf people and people with learning difficulties in their creative process, he explored new realms of possibilities.
Curious how enriching the experience for a whole audience and making your performance more accessible can go hand in hand, regardless of any limitations people may have? Tune in and discover how KNARS (NL), Kormac (IE) and Perhaps Contraption (UK) transformed their gigs to multi-sensorial, immersive experiences.
Dutch Sign Language interpreter
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Hello, this is the Revelland podcast. My name is Stephanie Singer, and I’ll be your host today. As always, this podcast is a deep dive into the process of transforming gigs into accessible and immersive experiences. I’m absolutely delighted to have with me, [00:15] Martijn from KNARS. He is going to be telling us a bit about his project, his world and the challenges of corona virus. You can find an accessible version of this podcast with subtitles and video on our website and youtube at: ‘Discover Revelland’. [00:30] If you’re all comfortable, let’s begin as we always do with some descriptions. I am a white woman, I’ve got long blond hair, I’m wearing a big ring, it says V.D. on it, on my index finger. I am actually sitting in L.A., so for me the time is 10 AM. [00:45] So I’ve got morning energy, for sure. And a little bit of sunlight is pouring through the windows behind me. So without further ado, Martijn can you give us a little bit of a background and introduction to who you are and where you’re sitting.
Well, hello there. My name is Martijn, but you can call me Martin, because that’s easier for non-Dutch people. I am a musician/composer and I am recording this at 7 PM, so it’s evening here, [01:15] it’s dark. But I would turn on the light of my sort of vlogging light setup. And I’ve got a camera from my computer that is filming me, and I am looking at the screen where Steph is. And I have a [01:30] blue sweater on, that has a print of Disney’s fantasia on it, so I’m wearing a Mickey Mouse shirt. I am a caucasian male and I’ve sort of slight blonde, red hair. [01:45] And I should shave my beard more often and what else can I say. [02:00] I am a producer, music maker and I’ve been invited by CAN or Possibilize or now Revelland to be challenged to create a more immersive [02:15] live show for my band KNARS. Because I am multipurpose creative and my main project here is KNARS, but I also have a lot of other projects going on, but we will be focusing on this one today.
And so, if you would describe the sound or the feeling of the music that you create at the moment, the KNARS kind of spirit. How do you describe it?
KNARS is all about the combination of [02:45] moshpit mayhem with a message. So it’s all about raw energy and having something to say, which makes it for me the most personal project that I’ve done. [03:00] Cause that’s been the biggest artistic development for the, I think the corona years. Previously I worked with more band concepts, but we kinda already before corona hit, we already [03:15] felt that the energy was kinda draining in the project, so I pulled all the creative decision making to myself, as the project initiator. And I sort of thought ‘Well then Martijn, there you go, [03:30] write what you wanna write.’ And then I was a bit stuck because I could only find that I was writing generic rave songs. And thus gave myself the assignment to make it more personal to say what I exactly wanted to say. [03:45] That has been the main direction for the new material that is coming up. And that material has been on the shelf for a long time, because our album was released three years ago already. And there is a lot of new material [04:00] and I can also say it’s gonna be published under another name, so that actually this is probably still published as a KNARS interview, but KNARS is probably gonna die.
It is, yes. But I haven’t found a new name yet, so for everybody listening, if you have an idea, please leave a message. But so the music sounds raw and energetic. It’s a mix [04:30] of genres. It’s actually more like, you can describe it I think as a rapper who produces his own beats, which are really diverse and really well sound designed. So we use a lot of influences from bass music. [04:45] It’s mainly like garage, drum and bass, jungle influences, some house even in there. It’s music to go crazy on, but it’s also music with a message and sort of a melancholic / [05:00] frustrations / cynical aspect to it.
There’s always been something that I find, with you as a person actually and also the music that you make, where you manage to kind of craft [05:15] a space where people feel really comfortable to kind of show themselves. You unlock that kind of ability even just like, with you talking normally. [05:30] It definitely fruganises like something you deliver people, you sort of craft this space for people to feel comfortable. I’m saying it’s incredible. And I’m curious how you approach the kind of compositional process. [05:45] Do you hold the audience in mind or does that resonate with you, is it an aim of yours?
Wow, that’s a huge question. Well I have to say that honestly it’s a really selfish process, when I write music [06:00], I just wanna do what I wanna do. But that’s not entirely true because I always keep sort of in mind that it is for this project. I do have a certain goal [06:15], but that goal is mainly having the best piece of music and not really create a safe space, like a main goal. I also think art shouldn’t have to be a safe [06:30] space. I think art should make you feel uncomfortable as well and scary a little bit sometimes, because it’s a reflection of the human soul, which also has a lot of bad sides. As Jesus [06:45] said: ‘Let him who is without sin cast the first stone’ – which I think not a lot of people are. Well, weird question [07:00], what was it?
We have gone straight into this. I love it.
No, you were asking what a compositional process looks like and whether I keep in mind to create [07:15] a safe space for people. Well, I do want people to go crazy and dance and let that all out. So catharsis is definitely an element, but I don’t write the music necessarily with that in mind [07:30], what it does for the audience, but mainly for myself, more and more actually.
We have been working together now for two years, is that right? Which is absolutely [07:45] amazing actually when you think about it. Because of this project, when it began, right in the beginning of coronavirus. And the whole kind of concept, of what was possible to make change at that point. [08:00] But during this process we had a lot of conversations, which I absolutely loved. And I think the words ‘personal’ and ‘catharsis’ and ‘rage’ came up the most in our conversations.
Yes, and medicine.
And medicine, yeah. And I suppose like during this climate, obviously there is the personal story of you as the maker, right? Keeping focused [08:30] and working on a show for that length of time. But there is also this kind of context where the show is going to sit in, when it does actually happen. And I’m just curious, like how that’s affecting what you’re designing. [08:45] So, before we go kind of into that, I guess, level of depth question, maybe you could just share what your vision for a live experience with Revelland is going to look, feel and smell and taste and be like.
Okay, so you want me to describe that really concrete and detailed or more broad and conceptional?
Let’s start concrete and then let’s go conceptional.
Okay, but that [09:15] will also mean spoiling things, right? Then I am gonna spoil the ideas that we have. I want it to be a surprise.
I don’t wanna. Okay, well.
My live show, come find out. [09:30] No, I don’t wanna, I’ll do it broadly. What was really, like you know, but the people who hear this don’t know that we’ve been developing like a [09:45] rage room concept for this. Like the safe space where people actually can break stuff. We wanted to create that safe space like you mentioned but then for corona applicable [10:00], in a corona safe sense. But also trying to find a more immersive way of expressing that, because of the catharsis element of my thing. Physically breaking stuff is a way of therapy [10:15] and release. And that unfortunately was great when you go in a smaller group, but now things are sort of opening up again. I’ve been trying [10:30] to implement the same elements which are sort of working because I’ve found a more immersive way to do something with the audience. But it’s less [10:45] violent because, and there’s more space for the general mosh pit, that people can dance. And then we have some new special elements that we added, through mainly performers, [11:00] that are going to do this while we are playing the music. So we’re gonna paint the music with all the other senses. And the main assignment from Revelland is also to [11:15] make this sustainable. So we can continue playing the show after the presentation. So the ideas that we had to implement also [11:30] have to be sustainable, redoable and cheap. It can not cost thousands.
And so how has this brief [11:45] felt to you? Cause I suppose when you talk about your normal gigs… You know a mosh pit is pretty immersive, right? When you’re in one. [12:00] So, how is this different, I suppose? Is this process different to your typical process?
Yes, absolutely, because you’ve challenged me to think [12:15] more of a show as a structural story. So one of the main things that I’ve implemented is the element of storytelling and having a narrative. The narrative [12:30] has become to conquer your demons. And that has been new because in the previous sense I would basically only think musically [12:45] and purely audio. So I would purely think, in what way do we build the set energy wise. Now I’ve been thinking more like how to build that up [13:00] artistically and with an arc. That is definitely a healthy and more fun way to look at art. [13:15] Not that I am painting something now, but art in the sense of music, and live performance is art. And that you can bring something to the audience.
That’s amazing [13:30] to think about it being something that might have an impact on future gigs or experiences that you might deliver. I don’t know if that resonates with you, but it sounds like it’s opened up a way of thinking [13:45] that might impact other things, other projects.
Yes, it’s just that I’m in a bit of a pickle, as they say, in the sense that our act is so deep in development. And we currently, even if corona would be over right now, we still wouldn’t [14:00] sell shows. Because that’s just how the market works. Pop music is an extremely competitive market and we’ve been very relevant but now we aren’t anymore. In the sense of that we haven’t released new music in two years. [14:15] So that’s all been stashed up. And there is a lot of new music and new videos but that means that we, I think very economically and I can’t pay the extra performers for [14:30] a lot of extra shows. But I have been thinking about implementing all the ideas that we have. It’s definitely something that I wanna do in the future. It has definitely [14:45] rewritten, sort of the way how I look at other live shows, but also really for KNARS. I also think that all the other projects that do all require a different approach as well. [15:00] But sort of have the same way of investigating that process. It’s hard to really specify in [15:15] English but in Dutch we have a word ‘kapstok’, which is the kind of thing where you hang everything on, so where you hang your clothes on. Which is like a way of saying, you have that as a main structure where you [15:30] can then apply every project to, as example in this case. Definitely thinking in a new way about creating live performances. It is going to be fun for the future [15:45], yeah.
You mentioned some really interesting things around the kind of sustainability of the idea or the challenge that Revelland set you and the other bands. And there’s obviously been a lot of creative challenges in that way. [16:00] But the sense of this kind of experience that you’re having in this process, in the climate that we’re in, with the coronavirus happening. And all the turbulence around that, in terms of what is possible? Can you just shudder a light [16:15] for listeners into the process you’ve been on. Let’s just even just try and cosmise back to you. The first call that we had to where we are now. Like how has this process been for you? [16:30] How has the turbulence challenged or opened up in things you’re creating?
It has been absolutely awful. It’s been terrible. Because everything had to be [16:45] digital and I fucking hate that. The plan was to have a weekend together and have all the coaches. That would’ve been amazing, also just for the group building and the community sense, [17:00] the togetherness of it all. But now that was like a day long Zoom call, which was the worst call I’ve ever been in. It’s been terrible. [17:15] I can hardly blame that on Revelland, it’s just been the only way to do a process like this in the circumstances. [17:30] I’ve rarely been in a process that I’ve really looked up against as much as this. So congratulations with that. It sounds really unthankful but it’s just been a lot. [17:45] Also with redeveloping it constantly. First, coming up with the show, then with corona we’ve found that scenario of thirty people live gig, a really small [18:00] Walk The Line edition. And then we had to redevelop it to a large audience again. And now last friday, we heard that everything is gonna be closed down unless it is seated. [18:15] That’s something with KNARS that we said, we are not gonna play seated shows. That’s just not what we’re gonna do. Because fuck that with a mosh pit band, that’s gonna be the boringst thing ever. I’ll happily come with [18:30] one of my other projects, but not with KNARS. So well, right now, it’s gonna open up sometime. [18:45] It’s definitely not hard in that sense to switch but it’s hard for me, because I carry a lot of the executive power on my own as well. I don’t have a large team. I had to [19:00] organise a try-out next week with all the dancers, the audience, the location, the mixers. I need to rent lights, I need to make sure the musicians, make sure that we’ll have [19:15] a rider, make sure we’ll have a sound guy. Make sure that the dancers know where they come up and make sure we’ll have rehearsals. Make sure I’ll have a time schedule, someone to receive the guests, the food. There’s [19:30] so much I have to carry on my own and I don’t mean to sound like I am suffering and sad. But it’s a lot when that is going to be cancelled like now. [19:45] Then it feels like a lot of energy draining is happening. Which is not to blame on anyone. I am the guy who has the negative feedback from the most, because I’ve invested all my time in.
Yes, I don’t think it’s negative feedback. To me this is just an explanation of part of the point of making art that the art happens, right? And there’s just kind of impotence that comes, or this [20:15] frustration that comes, from betweening up all these amazing things. Putting in all the work, crafting every element, communicating, consolidating, holding a team, building and building and building. And that’s a lot of adrenaline, then to find out, kind [20:30] of moments before, weeks, even months before…that’s still a big adrenaline drop that happens in those moments when things are postponed or cancelled and it’s a big challenge. I know it’s not solely [20:45] your challenge, it’s a global creative arts challenge right now. It’s holding motivation when a lot of our release…and the kind of completion [21:00] of our work isn’t possible. That’s a very intense thing to keep our heads down. One of the big kind of aims of Revelland, as you know, I think you out of any of the creatives who had the most experience. [21:15] One of the core aims is accessibility and inclusivity and using immersivity or sensory tools as a way of access, promoting access. Can you speak a bit about your experience with Sencity [21:30] and what that unlocked for you? And then just share about what inclusivity and accessibility mean to you, in relation to live performance.
Well, first of all it’s [21:45] sad that some people can’t experience art because genes or tragedy decided that it had to be different. I mean it’s not necessarily sad because they can still be happy, [22:00] but still a factor that you can miss out on. It’s cool to be able to sort of supply another [22:15] way of expressing that art and start thinking in that direction as well. That’s really something that’s [22:30] missed out on a lot by creators, I think as well. That’s what I think is the coolest thing about this project. That it helps creators think to really create something that is more immersive [22:45] and translated to the other sensual languages. I’ve been lucky to have been invited to create a Sencity show twice before, [23:00] so I sort of already had a broad idea of what to think about. But those shows were created with a lot of money. A lot of subsidy dollars. [23:15] And that’s something that we don’t have now and not for the future. The hardest thing has been to translate a creative idea into that sustainable element. That can be really hard [23:30] but we also found some really fun solutions that I’m super excited about to go and bring into the world. With taste for example, I’ve always been focused on like ‘we need a cook’ [23:45] or ‘we need a fridge to give ice cream to people after the show’, stuff like that. Which all would have been a big hassle. I am a big health freak, so I sport a lot and I eat very healthy. And then one day [24:00] I ate a vitamin C pill, one of those super sweet sour ones and that burst in my mound, like ‘ohh what’s this taste?’ Then I came to the idea, those are really small pills, we can easily [24:15] grab a few bottles and hand those out to people at the show. That can already be a fun part but it’s gonna be a small part and it’s not gonna be as immersive as audio or visual can be. [24:30] But it’s a fun addition, but it’s not a replacement.
Say more about it. That’s really interesting what you just said. Say more about what that means, what your perspective on immersivity is. [24:45] If you’re saying audio and visual is more immersive than taste, why is that?
Yes, taste can’t replace that and it’s a nice addition. But it’s just like going to opera and not knowing what the opera is about. [25:00] Then you can definitely hear amazing singing and playing, but you will be like, yeah well whatever. But when you really know what the story is about, then you can be like ‘oh man at that point they were so into it, I felt so sad cause I understood [25:15] that feeling of hopelessness or whatever.’ Just an example. It’s also with music, well that’s gonna be a long discussion. Talking about music as a commercial sense and art, and that there’s commercial music to just dance to [25:30] and sing and song writers or rappers who really have a message and stuff. Then you also reach my personal belief that music has to be about that message, but then again I think ninety percent of music consumption is never about that message. [25:45] But all about music as a sort of paint on the wall, like background music, just a vibe or a party. It’s never about really what an [26:00] authentic individual has to say. Well, sometimes it is and I admire those artists as artists the most. And the other music I admire is really well executed [26:15] sonic elements, but not as a story told. I am drifting off the question again.
No, well, I suppose to think that I was picking up on [26:30] that you have a perspective on what it is to be immersed in something. I don’t know, I obviously thought about this a lot. I think one of the things that music has is, [26:45] it controls time. In a way that flavour is time based, as in you put it in your mouth and chew it. You get it, right? So there’s a journey, [27:00] but it’s not like the chef controls the time.
You don’t ever have a mouth implemented mechanism that releases the taste at the exact time that the music is, as it speaks. It has to be a voluntary [27:15] process to taste it.
And there’s something about the story, the music and the visuals that kind of can all move through time, really elegantly. In a way that means you stopped [27:30] noticing the kind of exterior elements or the things that are making it work. You stop noticing the speakers, you stop noticing the projector or whatever is the kind of function. You just allow the thing to take you for a duration. And there’s something that’s [27:45] different about taste in particular, the smell of it , you just kind of also have the same compassion to it. It just arrives and then it disappears. The taste is kinda different. So in terms of your [28:00] kind of experience with pairing sensory things with your music. Do you think that there’s further, that you want to go with this way of thinking?
So say more. Where do you see it going in the future?
Yes, I have big dreams madame, I have big dreams. But those are expensive dreams. For [28:30] example, I want to write movies and series about Julius Caesar or Napoleon, which are like really interesting people to me. But I am not in this foreseeable future, I’m not gonna be able [28:45] to realise that. But how cool would it be if you would go to a movie and you would have the blood splatters sputtering over your face or you would actually have to fight someone while you’re at the movie? [29:00] You would have the smell of Julius Ceasers’ home country and that would go back to flashbacks and dreams. You would be super exhausted and then the first taste of a meal after a battle, that you and your [29:15] fighting buddies got defeated in. That feeling of fresh bread, fresh water, this is the best. Those are experiences that you can write but those are hard to really [29:30] immersively experience. But that would be the coolest thing to do, to create a journey, just so intense. That would be something that I love, but it would be really hard to do.
Alright, I believe you could do it. [29:45] But you know I’m in your corner anyway, always. So, the final kind of exploration around [30:00] the process, a bit more around the accessibility process, how was it that you began to think accessibly? Did you notice a shift [30:15] in your own creative process? Do you think there’s some examples of what you’ve integrated or what you’re designing? There are brilliant ways of thinking about accessibility and inclusivity inside of a set [30:30] and can you give some examples? Or don’t you want to reveal the magic?
No, you’re right. But first, I think that the rage room concept is a great example. Right, [30:45] cause that’s a really immersive thing, but it can also be limiting to have to make something accessible. For example, now we are developing lyric videos, which I think are a great [31:00] way for people that can’t hear to know what the music is about. Which is really important. But it’s also something that I don’t really want to create as an experience, because it’s very distracting to keep on reading, like a karaoke show, while [31:15] it’s all about being in the moment. So there are also definitely, like, downsides. Also for music creators, I feel the weight and the responsibility to create something that’s accessible for everyone. [31:30] That responsibility can really kill your creative vibe. Sometimes it’s just not an accessible starting point but an artistic starting point. [31:45] It can feel like something that you have to implement, for me, cause I take it really serious.
I think what’s interesting about what you just said, it really strikes me, is that the [32:00] two examples, the kind of lyric video versus rage room, right? A rage room, if you would say something, design an accessible experience, it’s probably not the first thing that people are gonna think of.
No, you’re right.
But I think that that is why there’s so much in it. It’s because it’s not saying, I’m going to break down all the elements of my show and think about [32:30] it the same way as writing the lyrics out. That makes it help people with access, the words. But it doesn’t necessarily communicate the vibe. It doesn’t necessarily communicate the ineffable sensations of listening [32:45] to the music. It’s just like, these are the lyrics, but it doesn’t have the melody or the rhythm, or the intonation of the singer inside those lyrics. Where’s the rage room, it’s different, because it’s flexible. And it’s got a more capacity [33:00] for the audience to kind of become hyper focused in a state of being. Which makes it naturally more immersive. And also you have to put a lot of safety regulations around to make it a space which people can actually use. [33:15] And it isn’t in a habit, which a lot of old accessibility thinking is kind of in the process of saying, oh poor you and we’re going to make this accessible. [33:30] But there’s a kind of patronizing element, this is not a patronizing concept. This is just, come in, rage, everyone is angry sometimes. So I think the richness of the rage room, as an accessible concept, is really exciting.
Yes, it is. And now you need to stop putting feathers in your own butt there Stephanie, because it was definitely partly your idea to create a rage room.
Yes, I’m putting feathers in my own butt.
So much inspiration. You’re a genius.
Basically I am a genius. Just saying. It came from you, I just articulated it.
You’re the best. There’s one very interesting thing that you’re saying, to what point [34:00] are you then still being a musician and what point are you being a rage room facilitator. And are you more busy cleaning up a rage room from people that rage than making and writing [34:15] music. That’s kind of the matrix that I am sort of in conflict with. That’s why for a really accessible [34:30] and immersive experience, you just need a lot of manpower to make it happen. That’s been the biggest challenge, to think of something that doesn’t need that manpower.
Yes, that’s really interesting, especially with somebody [35:00] who already, I’m talking about you, is wearing so many hats already. You know, managing projects, art directing projects, composing projects and now producing events. Which is a whole thing and requires [35:15] details [35:00] and a lot of spreadsheets. But maybe it’s also the kind of the habit that we have in the modern world, which is easing slightly in my experience. [35:30] Which is our obsession with isolating single roles that we as individuals play, rather than looking at ourselves as kind of complex individuals, that can kind of [35:45] shape into many disciplines, in the kind of polymath way of being. And the music experience creation is much more polymathematical than it is [36:00] single gifted. Solo task person, you know.
Yes, but it has been in that way for a reason and I don’t follow those rules. There are probably more creators that don’t. [36:15] It’s there for a reason because there’s also a reason why old top forties songs that you, listener, are listening to, are all written by somebody else. Mainly by five other writers [36:30] than the one who is performing it and whose name you found that song under. There’s a reason for that, because some people are better at writing lyrics or writing melodies or writing a song, than they are at performing and being the constant [36:45] focus point of attention. And there’s a reason why a movie is written, directed, filmed. There is so much credits in a film, there are reasons for that because they are separate skills. It can also be a bit delusional for me [37:00] to think that I can learn each skill and do it all like that. I mean it’s years of schooling and experience behind all those skills. It’s a lot of arrogance somewhere, that I can think [37:15] that I just do that. It’s pretty hubris.
It’s a different thing to imagine and dream up something and to manage a team who are [37:30] incredibly brilliant at delivering those things. It’s a different thing if you’re saying, yes, not only will I play this music that I’ve written and I’ll be singing it. I’ll also be cooking on stage and feeding the audience my amazing food as well as [37:45] like this perfume that I created, you know. That’s not what you’re doing. But I hear you.
Martijn: [37: 50]
The cooking on stage is inspiring, maybe I should implement that.
Why didn’t we think about that? Food fight!
That’s good, yes. That would be fun, super fun.
So, I suppose the kind of final question is, mostly the people that will be engaging in these podcasts, would be people that would be interested in entering into a creative process, similarly to this. So it would probably [28:15] be music creators. And in your experience, what would you say, as a piece of advice, to creators thinking about going on this type of journey?
That’s an annoying question. Because also who am I, who am I to say that? I am really curious about your [28:45] experience with all the other acts and how they have been through a different process, each of them. I think you are the best to really give the advice on this matter, because you’ve seen all the different processes of different artists, [39:00] who all have different roles and different groups. So first of all, I think it’s all about defining what you’re about and what you wanna do, that’s the main thing with everything in life, I guess. So it’s like, [39:15] are you a writer or are you a group, that’s already such a big different process I think. And then it’s about what do you want to bring, what do you want to say? Are there other ways to say or bring that? [39:30] And then my suggestion would be to keep it small, because we can all dream super big, but can you deliver those dreams as effective in a sustainable small way [39:45] that can still fit in your budget? There are so much surprising solutions, like throwing raisons in the crowd or spraying them with water, [40:00] I don’t know. What am I saying? So, piece of advice, I can’t really.
You just gave two pieces of great advice. Like just, quit while you’re ahead. [40:15]
No, but why I think I can’t give advice is because each artistical process is so different. You, listener, as a creator, are probably doing something from your soul. [40:30] And I make my music and you don’t make my music, so we come from like very different starting points. Your goal is probably very different than mine. Your goal is probably gonna be very boring [40:45] and moshpitless and nobody is gonna come. Just like everybody is not coming to my shows. So, we’re all in this together.
And on that optimistic note.
Let’s go! No, but really it is a different process for you, so your ideas come from you. Please do think of yourself as a great creator which has more [41:15] potential than just music. Just make music to your limit and break it. So do more than just the music. And do it in a fun way, something that inspires you, something that you think would be cool, [41:30] what you would wanna experience. Dream big but execute small. Something like that, yes.
These are perfect answers, honestly. Like, that’s gorgeous. Well, we’ll leave this episode [41:45] there. There’s so much more to talk about, I feel like I could ask you a thousand more questions.
There’s no more time.
That is all the time that we had, yes. Thank you so much.
Thank you, your positivity is being an inspiration. Thanks.
Bye bye, talk to you soon.